I dont see how or why the Jerusalem church could have trusted him at that point, even though they might (or some of them might) have believed his vision and repentance were real. Some Pentecostals or Charismatics are okay with women being preachers or teachers. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. It was really bad, disastrous I might even say. It is ok to ask for openess and transparancy. Plus I put up some Mozart for you guys. GW used to require people to take a class and understand the commitment but they couldnt keep their salvation numbers up without the spontaneous element that include giving away free clothes and smart little swag bags for those willing to dunk for the cameras. Forgiveness does not address that issue at all. There is great comfort to be found in that. It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility Thats certainly how Driscoll has handled things. Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. When he agreed to accept an $850,000 annual pay package while other staff were being laid off due to declining offerings, was he in a fugue state, incapable of understanding what was going on? what they are. He fails all or almost all the qualifications laid out for that role as outlined in the New Testament. "This ordinance reduces freedom of religion to freedom of worship," he said. On the other hand though a lot of people obviously like the guy enormously and his business model for his church is pretty successful. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. For mr. driscoll to change the whole meaning of this into the sponge was probably really used as toilet paper because he did some study in some far away country is to bring doubt to Gods prophecies and the fulfilment of them. I dont beleive that for a moment. I know the utter devastation that these cults can wreak on their members. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. Here me in this, the issue is Jesus. @ Gus: The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. Our heart at James River Church has always been to minister to people in our community. Hillsong Church Disinvites Mark Driscoll While James River Church So, if he became a member of a church, attended that for a while, accepting to do all kinds of unglamorous jobs that church members often do for their church, apprenticed with a pastor in a mainline church, where the position of pastor has a lot less power, tried to reconcile with the people he treated the worst well, maybe. this discussion you make today determines your destiny, God wants you to forgive. I just took a year of online classes at one of them. What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. It does not mean that forgiveness is lacking. Ok, I looked up Hillsong because I know in the past theres been a bit of controversy about them. I find it telling that it contains 41 mentions of "sin," "sinners" and "sinfulness.". Im fairly certain MD would enjoy being categorized with a so called revolutionary. Tom Lane already draws a massive six figure salary yet it is never enough. I noted in my comments on the petition that Driscoll still hasnt repented before all and specifically to the people whose lives he damaged, such as former Mars Hill elder/attorney Paul Petry, a godly, decent man. He is a draw. I hope more will speak up in the future. if mark is not truly repentant, (which is totally conceivable since he has never apologized for anything except being too unkind in firing people and running people into the ground under his God given authority) then this could be compared, (by sin levelers who will be quick to show up here and defend him)this could be compared to Jordan Root getting right back in the mission field and preaching about what happens when women and heathens in the press persecute godly people accused of child porn addictions with no evidence. . I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. Marks of a bully, and definitely not qualifications of an elder. This can be anything from praying for people over the phone to working in the Online Campus studio. John Lindell, pastor of James River Church, represents a new breed of reformed Assembly of God pastors yes Calvinism in the Assembly of God! Because he simply cannot be trusted not to repeat himslefthus destroying more lives. instead i find now that the Lord uses other christians to confirm things He has shown me, instead of the Lord teaching me things that others say i should believe and me just accepting them as the word of God because the guy has a position or written a book or is promoted by other pastors. Did you miss a tithe payment? since we are all clergy??? 99,693 were here. I completely understand why you are so skeptical. http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll. Do these Pentecostal leaders believe that there is a doppelgnger out there who tied MD up in a basement then impersonated him, swearing and saying horrible things from the pulpit? no., Thats the crux of the message, isnt it? i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. And equally astonishing is that other Christian leaders support his abusive style or at least overlook it. Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? The opposition is to Jesus. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? . The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. Look all those happy people; this must be a great place! Hi Nancy, I am a graduate from Sydney and I just want to say thank you so very much for making Mercy a possibility for girls like myself to be able to go to here in Australia, it has truly saved my life and given me a future. Please call upon Jesus today, you will be very glad you did! Sovereign Grace Ministries Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. plausible they shoved that in jesus mouth, with that taste on his lips. (the death of Jesus on the cross as written in the bible is not enough, mark adds something more exciting and sickening like they shoved an a##-wipe sponge in Jesus mouth.) However, with such a massive back door spanning 15 years, I still think more exiles should be speaking up for the good of the current and future naives. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. pic.twitter.com/FwaVnYEZIi. Likewise, you cannot be or stay a pastor if you find out that you cant respect people. 4 Ways of Discerning If You Have Left Jesus Behind. How do you see this as someone looking in? This captures precisely what I have been sensing as well. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. So true. Mark Driscoll has shown that hes capable of inflicting a lot of damage on many people. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. This guy had his audience eating out of the palms of his hands. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. But there is an interesting bit in Acts 9 right after Paul was doing a lot of debating/bold speaking in Jerusalem, the Hellenistic Jews want to kill him. ( As with the dituation with John Mark mentioned in Acts, and the conflict with Peter mentioned in Galatians. There could be some better teaching on this but too many appear to receive their teaching from celebrity pastors who then take advantage of them. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. hee hee. It is profoundly ironic that false teachers twist this particular scripture in an abusive way to their advantage just so that they can continue abusing. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. They didnt fail. He said that his hands were tied. This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. Your facts are a bit off, beginning with the meaning of Che. I am no fan of his, but there are some big holes in your acvount of his life. They use lots of hair gel and work on their golf tans. The sad part is that members have no idea how they are viewed unless they ask uncomfortable questions. Questions about James River Church : r/springfieldMO - reddit In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. Actually are pews still in general use? Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. Here is the gist of Driscolls message: its all about me and Im a martyr for the faith!, Same old Driscoll, full of male bovine meadow muffins. Are you not voting? And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? Van, I agree with Deb. He explained that wide is the path refers mainly to churches posing as Christian churches (mostly for millions in profit like GW) not the fringe Christian-like churches or belief systems (like LDS). My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. Thanks for the link i want to read more of the writers work. Why would anyone seek to admire and celebrate a man who plotted to kill millions of innocent American civilians? I am the way and the truth, no one comes to the Father, but through Me -Jesus, all those who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved!. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. I do feel bad for the guy in many ways. The church had 15 locations in five states. Thats why I would use a better example: If you knew that someone is a recovering alcoholic, would you employ him as a barkeeper? It is a winner! His style appealed to the carnal nature of 21st century Christians he gave them what they wanted and they loved it so. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. The emails we received were similarly written. I had never heard someone talk like that. The true character of a man shows when you see how he treats those with less power who depend on him for his income. Only the hero. Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? His most shocking was when just before he stepped down from the pulpit and was in the midst of many scandals, he did a sermon on the many mistakes of Jesus. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. i think He has some Jesus in him, it just gets mixed up with other stuff. I try to make sure my examples reflect current GW practice which is repellent to follow but important that people understand the stuff that I am posting is happening in real time. It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. Ches rise and fall occurred before I was born so Id sincerely appreciate any insight and correction. And Lindell knows none of that is because of him. Christian County has unfortunately seen an overwhelming rise in COVID-19 cases over the past several weeks and a subsequent increase in the number of hospitalized residents. "It was clear to me that Mark's attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose of Hillsong Conference, which is to see people leave encouraged in their own spiritual journey.". I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. Its a measure of arrogance. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? If Mark Driscoll is going to wanna manipulate his 501(c)3 Church audience to give him a second chance, hes gonna havta try harder. She came to me in sorrow that she walked away from a relationship with Agathos after that Mars Hill warning.. Lydia wrote: Albuquerque Blue reminded me of something about mark driscoll during the fall. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). mark is finally preaching more accurately who Jesus is and the fact that salvation is found in Jesus but then he goes off into marks interpretation of the bible as usual. So as long as Driscoll can provide entertainment and ratings, Pentecostals will continue to book him. It is definitely not where all leadership and vision is deferred to one man, and it is definitely not authoritarian. The hyper romanticized cinematic version of the uber cool Che trumps the reality of his bloody terrorist tactics and the horrors and oppression that his brand of communism inflicted on others. pastor says: James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas services. Three women have now blown the whistle on a program operated by the Ministry, including allegations they entered as independent people, however came out of the program as broken and suicidal. At a certain level they wanted leaderless teams who would function by consensus. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. Brad Pitt cancelled his wedding there due to the churchs anti-gay preaching. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. starts with: and it even works better when there is cheap grace and forgiveness all around. This is either a complete falsehood or shows their utter lack of interest in the facts, because, as HUG so aptly quotes GK Chesterton, and let me paraphrase her, celebrity pastor unto celebrity pastor is brother. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. Its all good until (insert question or issue). They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. GW youth group also adopted the whole Tribes deal directly from Hillsong, complete with competing tribes wearing war paint and carrying weapons. http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21 As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. Just like Jerry Springer would invite the Duggers on his show after the scandal? Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. He is a draw. Pouring what, exactly? I would hope we should higher standards than that. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. But over time became desensitized and swept up in group-think so as to eventually accept it as acceptable in the 21st century. I dont think many realize that in order to have real repentance they would have to give all that up. i havent seen any video or statement where he has actually apologized for anything except being mean when he should have been nicer in throwing people under the bus, shoulda offered them a pillow maybe so they didnt hit the ground so hard, but totally right in throwing them. I doubt he walked away broke. Totally. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. @ Lydia: I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). I told him that. Im so used to the megas Velcro bars where they only care about you if they can slap some Velcro on you to make you come back so you can become a tithe payer. How they hold their hands, pat their hearts, stomp their feet, fall to their knees, wipe away fake tears, etc is all taught in classes. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. was an attention getter. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. So many use Ches image as some sort of inspirational symbol. Unless of course, they give up the celebrity/money/position and go into obscurity getting real jobs. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. So grateful others are addressing these serious problems that plague Christendom. The Bible tells us lotz of neet stuff before it happen/happens. Even after becoming a believer he wanted more. 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Stephens, in my opinion, has gone to great lengths to keep his position on the ordinance incomprehensible. But we rarely hear about that. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. Robert Morris loves putting his flock under the law regarding Mosaic Law tithing and also under Deuteronomy so he can squeeze out extravagant gifts. Anyone who invites Driscoll without knowing his background also displays no judgement. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. Its what he does. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. as to revenue streams, Jesus paid His taxes with money a fish popped up with. Thanks for sharing your perspectives Abi Mia and Nancy, I appreciate that. Love, Here is Stephen facing public opposition. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. But guess what else happened? I also told him that before I wrote this story, I transcribed his sermon. Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. CAn you see him in some sort of corporate environment working for a woman? Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. But the Pipers, Mohlers, Akins and others saw him as someone really catching the attention of the young guystheir followers. Im all for forgiveness but this complete whitewash of history when someone offers up an opportunistic Im sorry is not something I see in day to day life. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. -Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truths. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? But he was not still throwing men and women (!) I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. Mega-church Christianity with its rock bands, light shows, huge screens, and glitz reminds me more of Broadway than a church. http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/article_4d131547-f913-5d43-bfc5-5a292f4c27e1.html, What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. @ sam: Prayer Requests https://www.youtube.com/watchv=i7lv9oMjv_0&sns=em&app=desktop. Thats right, the head pastor no less! it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. EXCLUSIVE: THE WEDDING's OFF! BRAD PITT FAMILY CAUGHT IN A GAY SCANDAL Oh no. There is a very strong argument for both priests and politicians to have both life and work experience before they enter the fray, however this is the age of the career priest and pollie. So now is the time ta share with kind folks the destination of their eternal soul? The Stronger Men's Conference exists to empower and motivate men to live out God's view of manhood and be the best husbands, fathers, and leaders God has called them to be! When that donor eventually supported our decision to leave peaceably, Jamie Munson was in a pickle. But one morning as I sat at my desk in y basement office, I looked up at my little bulletin board. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. I have heard Driscoll in person.. James River Church attenders should google What happens if you get a bad teacher. As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? You would have thought Piper would have caught on at some point. At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. No, there is no reason to believe CJ committed actual crimes. "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". Ill be honest I dont see Christ in it. 11 The Lord told him, Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. @ Lydia: standing. James River Church Engaged Employer Overview 38 Reviews 63 Jobs 26 Salaries -- Interviews 9 Benefits 47 Photos 12 Diversity Follow + Add a Review Employee Review See All Reviews ( 38) 2.0 Former Employee, more than 3 years Leadership not always what they portray Mar 2, 2017 - Anonymous Employee in Ozark, MO Recommend CEO Approval vinegar is disinfectant for wiping yourself. His behaviour has been SO egregious, that I believe that he needs to stay out of anything that offers him a place of leadership or authority. until he says otherwise what else can a person think? . But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. IMO, They are still who they are. have caused me to go into a major identity crisis, what i thought were well meaning however slightly misguided churches and some of the right wing christian patriots are not who or what i thought they were. I asked the mayor, specifically, how he will vote on the matter April 7. He told me Tuesday that he has every right to campaign for repeal in a sermon. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. That has made logical sense to me forever. 21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. especially i want to comment Bills comment: A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. i have seen this with great fruit but sooner or later they seem to join a church and then get into the organized one leader concept of church, usually a small church and then i have seen the vision they had and the practice of each one seeking the Lord individually disapear and be replaced by how to organize and raise funds to do more in the name of the Lord.