Duplex For Rent Tyler, Tx, Diane Schuler Mother Eileen, Articles L

With the Internet, you never know. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. The fervor of this movement reminds me of the early, heady days of the Jesus movement. That was not the case with Pete Briscoe as pastor. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others. Jeff S wrote: Yes! Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. I actually believe that part of our problem lies in the human drive to tie up our theology into a logically consistent package, thus filling in, with human reason, places where the Scripture leaves spaces. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. He remarked that our theology was illogical. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. This is my personal Faithlife account. I think Heb. @ Daisy: Online discussions of religion and politics usually end by going up in flames, with a lot of nastiness to boot. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. Thus, just when you think youve got them pinned with the logical plumb line, they slip deftly away with a declaration of noyou dont understand; I dont BELIEVE that. Thanks for the recommendation. We may diverge a bit here. Calvinism is merely the attempt by one man to interpret the Bible; there are scores of others, men and women, who have attempted the same. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom Ultimately, they could be reading an interpretation of an interpretation, adding their own along the way. Does not a little yeast leaven the whole batch? Happy Holidays. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. who needs systems & neat little boxes? Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism all come to mind off the top of my head. Their approach goes like this: You heretic! Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do And if the term is ambiguous, then I its wise to be careful and specific in criticism. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. Or the ideological roots of abuse. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. F.B. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Why the pessimism? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. Why did he care so much about what the Bible said? We are glad that you do. Church Discipline We are human, after all and I think all humans, from the beginning of time, have asked these questions, not just monotheists. So done with neat little systems with all the ends tucked in Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Lists of Christian theologians - Wikipedia They do not understand why this brings othersgreat pain. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Had childhood friends who were Nazarene and Presbyterian and myself., Plymouth Brethren. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. My List of Reformed Theologians - The Highway With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. This really frustrates me a lot. CALVIN! So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. It means you are thinking for yourself and we encourage you to continue to be the loyal opposition. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. When I first discovered Reformed theology, I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Julie Anne: They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. And later, mamas milkexactly what they need at the precise time they need it., Nick: Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need.. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. Do you not understand non Calvinists read the scriptures with the intent of honestyseeing what it says instead of wanting it to conform to our beliefs yet reading the very same scriptures with due diligence, do not come to a believe (amongst other things)in double predestination. God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. Every puzzle piece in its perfect place, no room for any doubt Oy. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). List of Calvinist Preachers, Authors, Theologians, Websites, etc. - Blogger I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. (LogOut/ (LogOut/ Just an observation. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Actually Ive always thought of the hyper crowd in any area as the ones who want to get in your face and tell everyone how if they are not with them they are against them. But that isnt enough. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. (Okay, back into lurk..later, yall!). 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. I cant explain it, but the very thought of it is a testimony to His love for us ALL. I had planned to say the same thing to him. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. Online, of course, its much harder to gauge actually, impossible, since you have no idea who is reading what youre writing. You're a Calvinist, Right? - The Gospel Coalition Ive seen only the first 15 minutes so far, and what he says makes sense to me: Is God the AUTHOR OF SIN? G. Campbell Morgan 16. If you think I should be sensitive and hold my tongue at times, then I agree. I trust him because I understand his loving nature. With all due respect to the Jeffs, look at their root assumption, and the glaring contradiction: they constantly maintain that TRUTH as a function of God can by no means be apprehended by finite humans, and yet resolutely declare in the same breath that this is the very proof of the soundness of their doctrine. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. And I will not say I could bebecause many of us understand that once we concede that men and women cannot know truth, then there is only one thing left to decide who gets to wield Gods authority on earth, because reason and logically reconcilable ideas have no place in truth: violence. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. It is a goal of this blog to extendthe dialog to include Calvinists and even find areas with which we can agree. We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. 5 Myths about Calvinism | Crossway Articles People often pretend as though there is a dichotomy between Calvinism and Arminianism. Indeed. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. Your voice is missing! LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. Craigs got it right. It is counterproductive., I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. The beginning of thought is in disagreement not only with others but also with ourselves.-Eric Hoffer. @ Bridget: If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. Actually, I admire you for letting it go on, but it would certainly be understandable if you had called a halt to it. Hes big enough. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. I hadnt thought of it that way. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. Should the conversation be halted? Here's the list showing the long line of Calvinistic SBC presidents LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. Seconding Numo, there are seats left at my table. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. Why did I smile? And no, I did not. That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. Can we not make allowance for Gods ways to be different from ours? So very reasonable. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. He once called Wesley an inconsistent Calvinist. Someone on another blog (I think it was another blog, unless I saw it here earlier) posted a link to this video. Under that, Calvins page count is over 2400 pages of theological system, over TEN TIMES the length of a typical genre novel of the Seventies, over FIVE TIMES the length of a typical paperback today, and at least 2/3 the length of the Lord of the Rings. @ Nick Bulbeck: Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. For Non-Calvinists: Of Which I Am One | The Wartburg Watch 2022 1550-1616), who was not. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. Im not saying that her description is completely off, but its far from the God of Scripture. I guess Im not explaining myself very well here, because all this is not to say I think theology is a bad thing. Roger Olson 23. list of non calvinist theologians - cleanworld.com I would be some place where I could state my beliefs openly. If I had to pick one thing about them that signals danger to me, though, it would be what they dont act on, which is all those chickified wishy-washy decaffy gay things Jesus (and subsequently the apostles) said about love being The Main Thing. Why isnt it simple, like the works of John Owen and Jonathan Edwards? Prayer Requests Howard Hendricks 20. Ah, I didnt catch that. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. If we get to where we can podcast, Ill drop you a link. etc. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Systematic Theology Comparison Chart. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. I have gone through some crisis of the faith in which I was unsure of what I understoodbut I never, ever stopped believing in Jesus. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. All of the people Ive met who have TAUGHT about Calvinism are clear on the definition, though. Benjamin Keach (1640-1704) Keach served as the pastor of Horse-lie-down church in Southwark, England. People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Weeps with you. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. But for the most part, until I started studying apologetics, I didnt really care about the supposed differences and still dont except to understand but not as a means of division. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. Jimmy Draper. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. You are still lost in your finite mind. Do you know how many people want to prove to me that they are correct? It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. Lin wrote: @ Daisy: In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. Reformed(TM): Christ is thrown under the bus and there is only CALVIN! The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. It was written by. I could not. Wow. We can learn to receive it all. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. This would definitely color their opinion. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. I am going to quote liberally from Sprouls book Truths We Confess, Vol 1 about this section of WCF. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. Reformed theology celebrates the glory of God. 10 Things You Should Know about Reformed Theology But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Jeff S, But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. 9Marks is another group which promotes the fact that they, the local church, get to decide who is saved and not saved. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. They are part of what it means to be human. circles, and here are the things that were primary messages: 1) God predestines some for salvation, and some for hell. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. Theyve boarded a bus and decided to ride it to the end of the line. However, because of this experience, I was soon led to Christ by a mainstream believer. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. And if you reject the doctrine as it has been historically understood (like the guy at my church), then at least you are wrestling with a time tested theology, not a new fad, and wrestling with time tested theology can only help you grow as a Christian. @ Bridget: I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) Thats why. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism | Tim Challies It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around.